Expansion Valve. Once you have replaced the OEM condensor with a PF unit, you will need to make custom hoses to mate with your OEM system. Its highest value is 1. Are r12 and r134 fittings different? By using a black light the dye will glow in areas where oil leaks are visible. Its among the greenhouse gases and will keep adding the current problem of heat not leaving the earths atmosphere. Yes, I don't trust the heater valve either. Even if the system leaks, repairing the leaks and recharging it with R-12 is usually the best repair alternative. This is 11F off the FSM performance graph - vent should be around 50F. The primary function of the design engineer is to make things difficult for the fabricator and impossible for the serviceman. Accessories Pumps, Cooling Towers, Evap Condensers, etc, Components Valves, Motors, Condensers, Evaporators, etc, Duct Systems Design, Installation & Practice, Piping Systems Design, Installation & Practice, Control System Design, Installation & Practice, Pro's Forum: National Electrical Code (NEC), Pro's Forum: Calculations & Electrical Theory, Pro's Forum: Electrical Business & Marketing. A slow loss of cooling at city speeds is usually related to condensor capacity & airflow issues. R134a compressors are substituted as new to retrofit the R12 system compressor part numbers with different height sealing washers. So you could likely put off buying those new hoses just a bit longer if you wanted. Break out the new gauges and measure hi and lo at 1500rpm, and do the Merc FSM test to see how we're doing performance wise. This can be very very expensive. It was later found that R-134a had a very high Global Warming Potential, or GWP, number. R134a Refrigerant Recharge Kit with BPV31 Bullet Piercing Valve and R134a Quick Coupler, R134a/R-12/R-22 Freon Refrigerant Hose Can Tap Kit for A/C System - Easy to use. If ambient is 90 (today) and the output of the condensor is 110, that's pretty good isn't it? The old compressor used R12 and the new unit will be R134a. Automotive Replacement Expansion Valves & Parts; Industrial & Scientific; Customer Reviews. And by matching the correct amount of R134a to use in a given vehicle, correcting the superheat of the expansion valve (if necessary), you can in some manner nearly balance or match the amount of heat drawn out by the evaporator and released by the condenser. Safe but sorry! Just leave it alone for now. How dumb!I will jumper the aux fan and redo the test. The system will be checked for gross leaks while under vacuum. . The best oil that runs well with R134a is PAG oil or Polyalkylene Glycol. It will work and there will be very little, in any difference in performance.As Chick stated, the difference is only the gas used in the sensor tube. R134a has a smaller molecule than R12 so R134a will leak out sooner than R12. George Bray on Wed August 31, 2005 5:03 PM I believe the optimum supercool setting will vary slightly between an expansion valve for an R12, as compared to R134a, system. It won't be optimal, though. This kit comes complete with Expansion valve, o-ring kit, and 1ft. In the automotive world, the replacement for R12 was R134a. . A. Pressure/temperature plot of R134a vs. R12 is shown in figure 1. I'm putting r12 back in my system, but all of the valves I can for the application (1990 jeep grand wagoneer) say r134a on them. Its not that difficult but the procedures of evacuation, charging and testing should be done by a licensed a/c technician that is experienced with R134a and your particular car. Theres no problem with using R134a in a home air conditioning system because it is a hydrofluorocarbon that doesnt cause environmental harm. There are two hoses listed, R-12 64-53-1-377-821 for $72.50, and R-134a 64-53-8-391-051 fro $262.50. Formula: (R12 Charge Specification x 0.9) - 0.25 lbs. a 50f delta across the condensor is good, but I suspect that is an idle reading. Is there a graph? Hmmmm. Add to cart. Thanks for the input. The substitute that we used for R-12 was the new HFC called R-134a. If there is no pusher fan, and you have the room, put one in. A Lot of the fins are bent, especially at the top. The difference between R12 and r134a is the BTU carrying capability. If your cars system has a sufficient condenser design and air flow to expel the greater amount of heat extracted by R134a, then by all means you should convert over when the time comes. evarporator, expansion valve plus flushing out the full system and replacing all the o rings. R134a refrigerant fittings are different size. Then again, there are two different expansion valves. Statisicaly your friend was lucky. ~ Mahatma Gandhi, Gandhi, An Autobiography, M. K. Gandhi, page 446. Some say that a chemical reaction can harm the A/C very badly as R134a reacts with mineral oil in some way. Looks like a couple of things happening here1) 80's vintage Eurocars were not "meat lockers". Hot coolant migrates up through the core by convection (is that the word? The #1 question asked by NEW MEMBERS. I think the way to go here is1. Since you will be using less R134a than R12 you do not want to rely on the driers site glass to determine if the system is full. Therefore, the higher the factor of the chemical (compound), the greater its effect on global warming. So to keep things simple and to avoid controversy and politics we have R134a. I have a laser temp reader, and it says the temps going into the condensor are up to 160F - coming out it is always around 110 or so. The crossover point is approximately at 64F. Consider using the newer valve, even with 134a stamped on the valve. It won't be optimal, though.On some/many valves, you can adjust them, but that might make matters worse unless you really know what you're doing (which I don't!).RegardsGeorge. bokoen1 hoi4 the great purge / meryl and maks dancing with the stars / difference between r12 and r134a expansion valve. Thus, when the system is running, condensing the CO2 is not a problem. -------------------------Just another brick in the wallHad a little mule I fed him castor oil and every time he jumped the fence he fertilized the soil, The older expansion valves were filled with the refrigerant they were used with, the replacement valves (today) are filled with a different chemical to work with both refrigerants..Hope this helps-------------------------ChickEmail: Chick---------------------------------------------Freedoms just another word for nothing left to lose, I believe the optimum supercool setting will vary slightly between an expansion valve for an R12, as compared to R134a, system. If the system was upgraded by a professional it should have an upgrade sticker. The first vehicle that used the R1234yf refrigerant was the 2013 Cadillac XTS. But as there's not a big difference, people say you can suffice with either. In large application systems, the vapor density of this refrigerant is usually high. Use a drop light in the engine bay, and check the air path from the front of the car at night. It can be used applications like walk-in coolers, food and dairy display cases, domestic refrigerators, and beverage dispensers and vending machines. The cost of recharging the air conditioner is between $150 to $500. Neuro spine Super Speciality Clinic - Above Apollo Pharmacy, Bangarpet Circle, Kolar - Bangarpet Road, Kolar Town. Components Coils, Heaters, Motors, etc. As R134A refrigerant has different operating characteristics and pressures this valve is not necesssry. What effect would it have on performance, if any?At the moment, the ac is acting up - will work fine for about 15 minutes and then slowly the vent temperatures rise until the compressor switches off. It is possible I have 10 ounces (250 ml) in the system. They should be able to keep you comfortable on a long trip, but don't expect vent frost in 3 minutes or lesss.2) Too much oil can reduce cooling capacity, and the effect is not linear. Lasers don't do well on vent temps, a stick thermometer is better in that application. It is common for eurocar threads to go multiple pages, and as Nick points out - sometimes cool is all you will ever get. I am ordering new parts, and planning to convert my system to R-134a. I'm thinking of jumping the temp switch and leaving the fan on to see how it does. Interestingly, theres one oil type that works perfectly with both types of refrigerants. Below are the major differences between R134a and R12: The chemical composition of R12 and R134a differ. The difference between the two is about 10,000 btu/h. In a car ac, using this type of freon 20 years ago was difficult. I don't want to be chasing ghosts. Replacement expansion valve for R134a or R12 A/C refrigerants, with O-ring connections. The ozone depletion potential of a chemical is a factor that shows the level of degradation itll cause to the ozone layer that surrounds and secures the earth from harmful radiation. 30 deg is pretty coldSystems generally run between 40 and 43 deg. If you find any of these conditions you will want to liquid flush (with dedicated AC flush solution) all the lines, condensers, evaporator (remove the expansion valve) before you proceed further. The higher the ambient temperature the higher the high side pressure. The car never overheats, if that has any import. An extra half ounce? "Howdy, Folks!" This is not to say that one of these small retro-fit kits cant be used, however to be used wisely. link to How to cut off a Catalytic Converter. If you have a perfectly operating system using R12 you do not have to drop what you are doing and convert to R134a. The symbol implies that R12 is a composite of carbon, chlorine, and fluorine. If it splashes inside the eye, it could lead to a serious eye problem. R134a is called tetrafluoroethane (HFC). It is a haloalkane and hydrofluorocarbon (HFC) refrigerant that has thermodynamic properties, potential global warming for one hundred years, and insignificant ozone depletion. James10952001. There is NO reason to retrofit a vehicle to R-134a as long as the R-12 system is cooling properly and contains a normal charge of refrigerant. R-12 - yellow R-134a - light blue R-22 - green R-402A - light brown (sand) R-402B - olive R-404A - orange R-407C - medium brown R-410A - rose R-507 - teal J Originally Posted by goldNSX. difference between r12 and r134a expansion valve. Though you can purchase 12 or 16 ounce cans of R134a from local retailers it is very difficult to measure out the correct amount into your system. Existing technology: R134a has been in use in the refrigeration industry for very many years, and theres so much information about the safe use of the product. Above this temperature, the saturation pressure of R134a is higher than that of R12; below, it is lower. Biggest you can fit in there is best. You either get a system that will function well with R1234yf or get any other type. The non-flammables can have R22 type gas which is not compatible with most rubber hoses or they have gases that contribute to global warming. So the steps involved are cleaning out the old oil, replacing all the O-rings, replacing the dryer, replacing the expansion valve, and converting the high and low side connectors from Schrader to quick connect valves. In most cases, the systems used have varied components, designs, and service ports. Just had knee surgery yesterday, so I"M not exactly hopping around too well. Best for varieties of operating conditions: Its boiling point is -21.6 Celsius. It's actually a reaction with chlorine in the mineral oil that may have been absorbed and leftover from the old R-12. These cheap kits usually have a few cans of R134a (either 12 ounce or 16 ounce), maybe an extra can of refrigerant oil, a few generic R134a charge port adapters and maybe some o-rings. With tube & fin condensors in MVAC applications there is never "too much" airflow. leading to corrosion of expansion valves, capillary tube plugging, and compressor bearing . If you have the work done, be sure you find a true "A/C" shop that can make up lines. The evap is hard to get at. 1) Look Here at the available sizes of PF condensors.2) Go look at your vehicle's condensor & mounting. and he synthesized R-134a in 1936, 5 years after R-12 was . R 134A is designed for the high demands of an automobile AC and cannot be used on refrigerators due to pressure differences. ~ Mahatma Gandhi, Gandhi, An Autobiography, M. K. Gandhi, page 446. You'll get marginally better performance out of the change as the expansion valve is matches the refrigerant characteristics. You may be just fine on oil - it depends on what compressor you have & how much oil you put in.A T/C is short for Thermocouple. Generally the system will be initially charged with approximately 80% to 85% of the original amount of R12, using R134a. had writing on the side that said R134a. Put a relay on the compressor clutch to the aux fan (I like that idea - makes a lot of sense)How does that sound? 5. The money you will save by will pay for the R12. A slow loss of cooling at city speeds is usually related to condensor capacity & airflow issues.You could improve the cooling capacity by replacing the condensor with a high effeciency parallel flow unit. R12, on the other hand, is called chlorofluorocarbon (CFC). As per their results . One thing at a time here, and slowly, the knee is not up to jumping around like I used to at the moment. Temp switch works the aux fan. If your a/c system is empty/low on refrigerant, if your system has a leak or if you need to open the system, then now is the time to decide which refrigerant you want to use. The oil used in R12 systems is not compatible with R134a refrigerant. Since then, the industry standard has been R134a, which is an efficient replacement. You do not however need to replace all the o-rings or seals for a simple conversion, it is simply a logical thing to do when and if the time comes to work or replace certain components because of age issues. The OEM spec is 2300 rpm @ 12.6v (engine stopped fully charged battery). R134a compressors are substituted as new to retrofit the R12 system compressor part numbers with different height sealing washers. For instance you can evacuate FRIGC FR-12 into a refrigerant recovery bottle that has R134a in it or visa versa. Most vehicles manufactured before 1993 have the R12 A/C system. R134a requires the use of synthetic oil! Sense ells no existirem. I'll put the relay on for that. Some cars have both an engine coolant temp switch & a refrigerant temp switch, others only the refrigerant switch. At 2000rpm, windows open, highest fan, hi pressure stabilized at 225 psi, low 25psi.Ambient 81F, vent 61F. asia pacific stevie awards 2021. gin, amaretto cocktail. According to Wikipedia, There is such a thing as "r132a" (1,1-Dichloro-2,2-Difluoroethane), however there is no indication of it being a commercially produced refrigerant. Any advice appreciated. Theres no doubt that R12 refrigerant is one of the first compounds manufactured for the air conditioning and refrigeration world, but it had to be banned. R134a has an ozone depletion potential of 0, implying that it has a slight effect on the ozone layer. Measure what you have now.3) Go back to the page in step one, and find the largest condensor you can put in your vehicle. The smoking question & vent airflow indicate that the evaporator is fairly clean - and you are aware of the importance of that.The heater valve stops the flow, but there is always some conduction heating. But, if your car lacks enough condenser and you have many 100+ degree days then you may want to stick either increase air flow, add another condenser as we mentioned in The Mr. Ice Project or stick with R12. A capacity curve is shown in figure 2 for relative capacity of R134a vs. R12 for evaporating temperatures from 0F to 50F. Unfortunately, the oil only mixes with the refrigerant as a liquid. And no, you cannot "drain' excess oil out. But, what is considered a good temperature differential across the condensor? We've updated our forums!Click here to visit the new forum, Year: 1983Make: MercedesModel: 240DEngine Size: 2.4Refrigerant Type: R12Ambient Temp: 90Pressure Low: 35Pressure High: ?Country of Origin: United States, Hi, this is my first post, so please take it easy on the noob. I recommend replacing the expansion valve when you do the swap. 4 Stars & Up & Up; 3 Stars & Up & Up; 2 Stars & Up . The bad thing is I don't know what to do about it. But R22 is almost equally damaging. They examined the two configurations of capillary tubes i.e. R12, on the other hand, is called chlorofluorocarbon (CFC). Besides, its technology has been tested and trusted. For R12, its mineral oil. Could that be screwing up the systems performance?Anyway, when I installed the system, the new TXV (is that short for expansion valve?) Compared with the cost-performance ratio, R507 is 30-40% . You are indeed 20% out of the OEM spec for cooling. Boiling Point: R134a refrigerants boiling point is -26.3C (-15.34F). Stopleak is also risky. If you're getting a R134a compressor, might as well finish the job - replace the receiver/dryer, flush everything else, and convert to R134a anyhow. This is because R134a. Is that why expansion valves are specific to R12 or R134A? Thanks so much Bohica - you've save me many more hours of fruitless speculation. Since the hose is the stock hose, you cannot tell what refrigerant is inside. It's best to determine on a case-by-case basis while monitoring system pressures and output air temperature. Its duty is to convert toxic gasses produced by the engine into A brake cleaner is a powerful solvent for cleaning dirt from the brakes and other car components. The value of carbon dioxide is 1. R-134A has a slightly lower pressure at evaporator temperatures (30-40 degrees), but R-134a also has a much higher pressure at condenser temperatures (120-150 degrees). A York oil capacity is listed as "6.5 to 9.6 ounces". . "Jerky Locker" LMAO I am using that one in the future!Florida = BUGS! -------------------------"Among the many misdeeds of the British rule in India, history will look upon the act of depriving a whole nation of arms, as the blackest." R12 is otherwise called dichlorodifluoromethane is a colorless gas (chlorofluorocarbon halomethane (CPC) that is used as an aerosol spray propellant and a refrigerant, and is soluble in organic solvents. The system has been previously converted to R-134a. Besides, R134a refrigerant was manufactured after R12 was banned to help reduce the harshness of the old chemical (R12) on the ozone layer. For those of you who are considering what the cost is for R12 you can think of it this way: Dont go out to dinner this weekend. Very nice! However, you can convert R12 to R134a by yourself, save money and keep all the tools purchased. Then I'll put the ball valve in on the coolant and test it and see what we have. Rules governing changing from the former to the latter differ between countries. There is a lot of differences between the R12 and the R134a fittings, you can't mistake them. MB has specfic test parameters for performance, but you can always test at max load - doors open fan on highest speed.The oil overcharge looks like a parabolic curve. I bought a relay to put on it connected to the compressor clutch. The cure is to use the newer R134a compressors is sealing washers that are different thickness. Trinary Pressure Switch $ 39.99. Fitting a PF condensor is not rocket science, but it requires some planning. If your compressor requires replacement or its seals and o-rings need to be replaced due to leakage, it would be wise at this time to either obtain a compressor that has o-rings and seals that are compatible with R134a or have your unit re-manufactured with compatible components. The system has been previously converted to R-134a. Can I just use an adapter and save $200? After the optimum refrigerant charge is determined the car should be test driven to check for performance of the system.
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