Developed in the early 1960s, the .223 round was first used in Vietnam. Oh and dont give me the garbage about 9mm has come a long way since its inception. A 9 is a great backup. What type of bullet is being fired? Give SOCOM GLocks which shoot 9mm (Glocks are great guns and I dont have a problem with the 9mm, great cartridge especially with all the advancements over the last 30 years) as I was saying problem solved. However, in early 2015 the door was cracked open, allowing them to choose Glock 19's (chambered in 9mm) instead of their larger counterpart. finds relevant news, identifies important training information, After receiving this wound, Platt initiated a devastating attack upon the surrounding FBI agents, killing two (including Agent Dove) and severely wounding two more. The comparisons that I have seen conducted under those conditions seem to be pretty equal. A .50 Desert Eagle is no good if you cannot carry it and get it out and shoot it accurately and fairly quickly, no matter what the knock-down power if you were able to hit anything with it. Will that hollow point still have the same effect? People have walked off from head shot wounds from the venerable .45, .38 mag, etc. I carry a number of different calibers depending on what Im wearing that day and where I intend to go; but I no longer even own a 9mm. The bullet had disintegrated his spleen and torn his aorta. The only way to ensure immediate incapacitation is to shoot the adversary in the brain or upper spinal cord (i.e., central nervous system). Head and neck shot were down on contact if the hit bone, flesh hit required another shot. Now they have announced they are moving back to the 9mm in the form of the new Gen5 Glock 17M. But with the way things are going today I decided it was time, so I just bought S&W M&P 9 Shield. However, the round stopped just short of entering Platts heart/aorta, only penetrating his torso about six or seven inches. One thing to note is that for more most applications the military is restricted to FMJ loads. At that long distance, the .223 will slam into its target with almost twice the speed of the .22. Practice is key. The average criminal etc. Thats not the kind of performance Im looking for. Military ball ammo leaves some things to be desired. ammo. According to mamas statement, Papa got crazy and chased her into the bath room. Theres been many people shot and continue. In case you didn't get the memo, the FBI's ballistic testing labs are the best in the world, and they've been doing it for a long time. This may be called Tools or use an icon like the cog. If I think it can get that bad where Im going. If these shootings have something in common, it is each and every one is different. It is the concept that will underlie this entire article. Training, muscle memory, nerves, etc dictate to me, that the harder hitting rounds are far more apt to keep me going home in the morning. No lab test can tell you how likely a round is to drop an assailant, but they can tell you how destructive a round is upon impact, which is the best metric youre going to get. Plus: How to contact us. You could smell the gunpowder. The Department of Defense has recently been taking a hard look at the sidearms and sidearm calibers issued to today's military personnel on the front lines. and departments. That still dont make them experts but better than the average person. As long as YOU are comfortable with the choice, then Im happy for you! Im not going to begin to discuss the variables between the two calibers and cartridge designs but statistics released from DOJ shows that larger cartridges are more effective at stopping Humans per round on target. If knock down power is desired forget the 45 and get a 44 mag or get a 375 they kill most anything one shot. Lexipol. I spend a great deal of time on the range. Sorry for the rant. to a target, which ripples out as a shockwave through tissue as the bullet plows through the body, leaving a cavity in its wake. Since the mid-2000s, gunmakers catering to consumers who increasingly buy weapons for self-defense have produced fewer of the small-caliber handguns like the .25 or .32, and more of those 9mm and larger. Grinder: I realize this reply is way late in being posted, but I couldnt let that pass. 9mm will not drop a target unless you hit the CNS.a buddy of mine took a 9mm straight through the head through his eyeball from about 20 yards away. Your body will make the shot while your mind hesitates every time! All this scientific garbage really sounds great, but if you need fifteen rounds to eliminate a threat you got real bad aiming habits. But I have some serious doubts about his understanding of external and terminal ballistics. I shot 8 watermelons, 4 for each gun. I just got a glock30SF and im thinking of adding her to the g27 for my CC permit. This post reported that the FBI Training Division had reevaluated which handgun round was best for FBI agents and reached the following conclusions: The 2014 FBI Training Division Report stated that the FBI had chosen the 9mm bullet (147 grain Speer Gold Dot G2) for FBI agents to carry because, The 9mm provides struggling shooters the best chance of success while improving the speed and accuracy of the most skilled shooters.. The .9mm, took3 rounds to the chest and he never even paused. The door has been opened and shut for good on John M. Browning's classic 1911 design. A sniper friend said once if bigger is better throw bricks he was using a 243 cal not a 300 win mag nor a Lupa 338. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2rwYqGmVvzQ, http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1165386, http://www.m4carbine.net/forumdisplay.php?s=&daysprune=&f=91, http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=34714, http://www.dtic.mil/ndia/2008Intl/Roberts.pdf. But for those of us that like to aim and make good hits Ill take the 45 as a primary with a compact 9 as a backup. They should provide officers who can control the larger weapons a choice about which pistol they are permitted to carry. We all, sitting safe and pretty, can discuss this and that but we are NOT in their shoes. Para Ordnance 12-45, officer size 1911 .45acp with 12 or 14 rd mags. I dont know if the recoil might throw me off. by Kyle Mizokami Key Point: These are the bullets that will do the We souped up the 38 special to produce it .The 10 Auto was dumb ed down to create the 40sw. If I ever have to use my firearm to defend myself or my family, I want all of the energy from that round to be expended in the target. It turns out, however, that things arent that simple. Following the incident, significant changes were made to the firepower carried by agents, the body armor they wore and the incident response training they received. Ive shot both calibers at humans as a soldier and as a LEO and 9mm just doesnt get the same results as 45 in the same number of shots. Practice drawing the weapon, aiming it, and firing. I just bought a S&W M&P 9 Shield. Wood, USMC, 1966-68, Quang tri Province. I seem to recall reading in Rangemaster newsletter a month or two ago an FBI paper making the FMJ case. We report stories that would go untold. Episode 424 is the perfect companion to this post because we discuss caliber and it's relation to hit factor! In Sicily had m14 auto and bi pod. Which might had something to do with losing the Revolutionary War, where Americans used guerilla tactics. 125 gr 9 mm PB fully jacketed bullet will generally penetrate both skins of a car door. and their caregivers describe a lifetime of chronic pain, repeated surgeries years after being shot, and challenges to everyday living that come from losing parts of vital organs, like a woman who has to buy her son, We are currently looking for shooting survivors to discuss their experience and their recovery. Just came down from AK and bears and mad moose have been my biggest issue. A 45acp will deliver more damage to a human body that a 9mm. I can buy that. In winter I concealed carry a 1911. Its hesitation that makes people miss. Guy KEPT COMING and managed to shoot back twice. There are four major handgun founding factors. Take a look at the FBI stats on their testing of various pistol ammunition as well as other reputable studies. the article mentions that where a bullet hits the human body is also a major factor on whether it inflicts a mortal wound. Okay, I have to give them props on this part of the statement because this is 100% correct. The paramedics said he probably would not live. In my book Lethal Force and the Objectively Reasonable Officer, I point out that after the FBI shootout in Miami, the FBI Firearms Training Unit, under the leadership of Unit Chief John Hall, tested 9mm, 10mm and .45 caliber rounds. Its disturbing to me that we give up performance for comfort. I like to study real world crime stats and self-defense incidents; and study hundreds of shootings every year. .45 ACP (230gr) One of the main reasons why military personnel and many LEOs made the switch to 9mm handguns was because of the deeper bullet penetration. One week later the detective in charge advised me that papa lived, walked out of the hospital and back to Mexico. Seems to me that American businesses take it in the chin enough already without this insult. There is a wide range of participants and many of them have never fired a gun of any kind. This is what can incapacitate a target, even with a poorly placed torso shot. In fact, thats what civil liberty defense ammo is all about. But whats the long term average? Back then we all agreed the larger rounds had better stopping power. too powerful??? I also read a recent article about a fishing guide who shot and killed a grizzly bear with a 147gr, 9mm from a S&W 3913. So, the answer is simple, right? Here is the money point: assume you will only get ONE shot at the perp. It can also destroy your aim, and the strongest bullet on earth is useless if it doesnt hit the bad guy coming at you. The FBI claims a bullet has no hydrostatic shock capabilities until at least 2200-2400 fps. Indeed, you and bystanders in the immediate area are much more endangered by rounds that do not penetrate sufficiently than by rounds that overpenetrate.. A bigger hole is better than a smaller hole and more holes is better than one hole. I read this after selling my XD Tactical in .40 to a friend and then settled on .45 GAP. I do like the capacity of the 9mm for in town carry and lighter weight than my Govt model 45s. What we do know, however, is that when most people are shot, they fall down. Dr. Peter Rhee is a trauma surgeon who operated on victims of the 2011 shooting at a political event in Tucson, Arizona, in which six people were killed and 13 wounded in a hail of 9mm bullets. Sound familiar?? During a dynamic gun battle with erratic movement by both officer and adversary, this requires extraordinary marksmanship or, more likely, pure luck. The only thing caliber has to do with it is 9mm is size efficient for capacity. I have small hands for a guy but I have no problems with accuracy. Spend the little extra money and get the 5.56 chambered AR so you can safely shoot the higher pressure and accurate 5.56 ammunition and leave the .223 in the store. Come join the discussion about optics, gunsmithing, styles, reviews, accessories, classifieds, and more! So dont ask. No matter what caliber you are carrying, just remember that one of the keys to shooting through auto glass (whether from within or outside the vehicle) is to shoot as much as possible through the same hole. Also, do you love this debate on the various handgun calibers? Gramins was using a 13+1 capacity Glock 21 in .45 ACP. pulverizing bones, tearing blood vessels and liquefying organs. She remembered one young man who was admitted to her emergency room with an abdominal wound from a hollow-point round. Thats the secret. Lets say it is winter and a large person is wearing very heavy clothing. Very accurate and deadly, The bullet travels at 1450 FPS. Pain is generally physiologically irrelevant, but where present often just makes motivated targets angry and thus, more motivated. Sign up for new product alerts, company updates, and more! Even the Scout Snipers are still using the .308, whereas superior platforms are using .300 Win Mags and .338 Lapuas. Doctors later determined that this round was not survivable. It is often said in sports talk, that the game is a game of inches. This is also true in life and death gun battles like the FBI Miami shootout. The human body experiences four main types of acid-based disorders: metabolic acidosis, metabolic alkalosis, respiratory acidosis, and respiratory alkalosis. In fact you are 1000 rounds short. I see no problem with any branch of the U.S. military using the 9mm, but they need to go back and annul the Hague Commission signing. In his 1989 treatise, Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness, Supervisory Special Agent Urey Patrick explained that the goal of an officer in a life-threatening shooting incident is to incapacitate the adversary as quickly as possible. That much is true. It would be nice if it were that simple but of course its not. Soldiers and police officers are far more likely to engage multiple targets in extended shootouts with adversaries, and therefore have a much greater need for a high capacity pistol than I will in a self-defense scenario. I think the armchair warriors need to think about how a pistol is barely effective in military situations. Hollow points also create a larger temporary cavity. There were no exit wounds. And the department is no small one. Because of the dynamic and chaotic nature of officer-involved shootings, officers are trained to shoot at center mass of an assailants torso from whatever side/angle of the torso that presents itself. So, is the 9mm the ultimate handgun around? Now its true that most of those victims wounds ultimately proved fatal; but its also true that they were far from incapacitated and either did or could have returned fire if they were also armed. Because head shots are rare and extremely difficult, and torso hits are likewise difficult and do not result in immediate incapacitation, choosing handgun bullets for officers is a critically important task. Beats. Handgun velocities top out at around 1,500 fps at the muzzle. (My opinion) I have long advocated carrying 1911s with 8 extra magazines. Also my pattern emptying a clip rapidly against someone with a 9mm, Ill win that as well all day everyday! They are fine weapons and are certainly capable as a sidearm. But nearly worthless in real world situations. Damage: 62. The two calibers no one wants to get tagged by . Sad. Im sure, given the choice, MARSOC troops would take a 15 round FNX45 over a Glock 15. Basically what I'm saying is the .50 is almost the same size as .45 and the tissue damage is near the same. Shooting survivors and their caregivers describe a lifetime of chronic pain, repeated surgeries years after being shot, and challenges to everyday living that come from losing parts of vital organs, like a woman who has to buy her son expensive protein shakes after he lost much of his stomach. I had a neighbor when I lived outside Fort Worth. There was no blood on the floor below him. I think the pain element is still to much with paint balls for Obamas new policy I think dart guns with the rubber suction cups would be more his speed. There were 3 casings in the bathroom and a couple of more in the living room 10-12 ft away. Are there exceptions? If you havent got JHP or ballistic tip bullets in the 9mm gun your in trouble. A round put through the central nervous system of a target is likely to be incapacitating regardless of the caliber chosen. 158 gr 0.357" Magnum semi-jacketed bullet will penetrate outside skin of car door and sometimes just penetrate the inside skin. Type of ammo, stopping power, number of shots, shot placement, kick back, does the gun fit your hand, and whether your cheap crappy gun jams on you these are all part of the equation. Now I am a fan of 45s. Since the mid-2000s, gunmakers catering to consumers who increasingly buy weapons for self-defense have produced fewer of the small-caliber handguns like the .25 or .32, and, A .22 will kill you, but it wont blow your head apart, he said. Penetration of 7" pine boards for various pistol calibres: Illustrative penetration capabilities of a 30-06 full -jacketed rifle bullet at a velocity of 2700 ft/s and at a range of 200 yd: 1" of armour plate 7" of gravel 4.5" of brick 4" of concrete 32" of oak wood 6.5" of dry sand 7" of moist sand 26" of loam 24" of clay 19" of loose earth 60" of 1" pine boards, Continue reading here: General wound ballistic concepts, FREE Military Tough 6-in-1 Tactical Survival Knife, Free 2nd Amendment Gun Rights Silver Coin, Green Beret Master Sergeant Home Security Checklist, Winning Plays Texted To Your Phone That Comes Directly From An Elite Team Of Sharps, Ballistics Theory Straight Line Muzzle To Target, Internal External and Terminal Ballistics, High Standard Pistols - Firearms identification, Drop In Auto Sear - AR15 to M16 Conversion. Makes no difference to me. Spread the word; knowledge is power! As a civilian with a concealed carry permit, my rule is that I will carry the heaviest, store bought self defense round that I can buy. For members of the hand-cannon clique, toting a weapon loaded with anything less is just asking to be shot or killed by street punks who are feelin lucky.. the statement that a 9mm can carry more bullets. True. This represents a cultural shift in America. Project: Aftermath Wiki. They will simply leave their buddy there to die (and hopefully be able to take one of us with him). Been involved in violent life or death confrontations for well over 40 years. When i was in the military in the 60s we still were using hard ball ammo and the same still applied. Officers carried them in case their security was breached, and when the enemy was upon them, the kock down power was vital in saving their life. Did you know that Durys has been in business since 1959? 9mm Luger offers greater magazine capacity and less recoil/more weapon control at a lower cost. I will address the people shooting the weapons in the military. Clothing fibers can wrap the nose of a projectile, preventing expansion. Have fun be safe and shoot often for sport and recreation and maybe someday to save your life and loved ones! Many factors, including the moisture content, knot content, tree age and even the separation of the boards, can give rise to highly variable results. The pool of cartridges in the study are grouped which makes the data integrity less reliable but each group of larger calibers exhibit significant percentage better lethality. That the .45ACP slows down so much that its penetration is less effective than a 9mm? WebActually, three different types of pressure change appear: (1) shock wave pressures or sharp, high pressure pulses, formed when the missile hits the body surface; (2) very high pressure regions immediately in front and to each side of the moving missile; (3) relatively slow, low pressure changes connected with the behavior of the large explosive I have never shot a people. Fire Rate: 240 rounds/minute. I cant compare to 9mm but I still want to carry 45acp. When someone has a weapon to defend themselves the adrenaline factor comes in play on both sides but the one with the tracing and experience should come out ok and most of the time the neighborhood thug doesnt have the training etc. Core, you touch on something that I have often thought about. Shooting another person is only done with the intention to, at the very least, incapacitate the subject to protect the physical safety of others. I can not remember a single specific instance of someone shot with JHP, where I knew for a fact at the time what I was looking at. Yes, Alvin York killed seven Germans with seven rounds of .45 ACP ball, starting from almost 100m out, in front of superior officers who went out afterwards and kicked the dead Huns in the head before they made their reports. Think the title of this article is misleading. The difference Is not all soldiers are comfortable shooting the heavy recoiling 45 round. Your shots have to count. Physiologically, a highly motivated target can only be destroyed by hitting the brain or the upper spinal column. CHEERS. Hollow point bullets are superior to round-nosed ones. The gunman was able to inflict such extensive damage from across a baseball field because he was using a semiautomatic rifle that may have qualified as an assault weapon, akin to a standard infantry combat weapon. Other than for general interest, this type of test is of little use in the scientific examination of firearms-related situations. Both are great calibers. Wouldnt waste my money on it. In 1985, the US military replaced the .45 ACP with the 9mm round for its standard sidearm. Any gun between 9 mil and .45 caliber is fine if you can conceal it, and employ it quickly and with reasonable accuracy. The 9 mm and the round for the 9 mm is by far the cheaper not the better choice! Its a freaking tarantula. When a lot of agencies began switching to 9mm from .45 ACP and other heavier calibers, something became very apparent: the FMJ 9mm at high velocity tended However, for the civilian this is generally an impractical plan for a variety of reasons. It seems to me to be better than the 9mm or the 45 acp In this article, we will present what we believe to be the most credible information regarding wound ballistics from studies conducted by the FBIs Firearms Training Academy in legendary Quantico, Virginia. I am former law enforcement from Florida, depending on the situation I actually carry both my Ruger American 9 mm and the Ruger American 45 caliber ACP oh, not at the same time lol. But what I am struggling to understand is some of the ludicrous logic coming fromvarious sides of the issue. Second Media Inc., 30800 Telegraph Rd, Suite 1921, Bingham Farms, MI 48025 USA. I use +P ammo. The .223 is carrying 335 foot-pounds of force, while the .22 carries 70 foot-pounds. If you find yourself in a legitimate self-defense scenario, you will likely not have the opportunity nor the wherewithal to take a careful and well-aimed shot at your assailant's head. THAT shot better make a change. WebRock Island Armory 1911 Rock Ultra CS Fiber Optic 45 ACP Sub-Compact 7-Round Pistol $ 679 99 679 dollars 99 cents $ 699 99 699 dollars 99 cents. In this dangerous time period, an officers adversary can continue his deadly actions against an officer. Its actually much more simple than most would like to think. Sudden, immediate and even instant death. The wider bullet also creates a bigger cavity in whatever it passes through. .45 Actually killed to individual who I shot vs the others who all but one lived. And speed kills barriers. Due to the heavy load some people with both types of weapons had malfunctions as the slide was moving too fast causing failure to feed. Sick and tried of people not in the field deciding what is best for those in the field. As where the .45, would dislodge the silhouette every time with a single shot. I still prefer the .45. Ive shot so many different weapons, started at the age of 11, hunted most of my life. Sit back and take a deep breath and pray that if I am ever involved in a use of force criminal trial, pray like mad that this Marine is NOT called as an Expert Witness because I do not think there is enough toilet paper in a courthouse to clean up the mess this guy is going to make from his testimony. Whats more, a temporary cavity measures volume that has been stretched, not volume that has been destroyed. I guess I might be a little old school, 1911 45, M1 Grand in 3006, or M1A in a 308, these are older, but they have not made better guns or calibersI still have a glock and some 9s, but only because If I do have to use it I dont want to lose my 1911, and yes I have a AR15, but still like the A1 more. Just wanted to throw that against the wall. This pits apples to apples and will once and for all lay to rest all this ludicrous debate. Should be Marine Commanders Have.. Each of the operators has his own preference. My opinion is he got shot in the living room and after he kicked the door in. Pistol calibers can work well if you dispense them from an SMG and send lots of them at a time. What i find interesting is that so many people have so much to say and they have never been in actual shoot out.
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