You sir have seemed to have done a lot of research on the history of each manufacture. It is in great shape. Model:M1 Carbine. One manufacturer separated out smaller blocks of serial numbers for use by subcontractors who would use these DIV. Some enterprising fakers have welded up very deep staking punch marks, ground off the excess and refinished the receiver. Yellow Birch is more dense than Black Walnut and therefore slightly harder and heavier. Model: M1 Carbine. Waste of time. These sold for around $1.00 to $1.75 retail (new in wrapper) before the U.S. (September, 1994) magazine ban, and even less by the case. Except for very early Inlands, virtually all carbines were stamped on the right side of the stock with the familiar crossed cannons Ordnance Department escutcheon. This rifle is a must have for any WW2 or vintage collector. Some stock This product contains chemicals known to the state of California to cause cancer and birth defects or other reproductive harm. Caliber .30 Carbine Models M1, M1A1 and M2 (1) leftover carbines offered to Ordnance after a company name change and completion of the NPM contract (2) Toolroom Models: Pre This is not an accurate means of estimating the date the carbine was finally assembled or when it passed its final inspection. I've got one with (JJ) in a circle , on the flipper, on a Winchester. This M1 Carbine will stand out in any collection. Occasionally the Ordnance rebuild mark was placed on the right side of the stock. Got 1 ! Carbines with a Serial Number above 8 million. Manufacture date shows 9-43 with barrel date 9-43. Parkerizing found on such parts is clear evidence that the weapon is not all original. At least one document has been found that indicates Saginaw received Ordnance Since many of the parts were produced by subcontractors often hundreds, if not thousands, of miles apart, the parkerizing found on such parts would certainly not be expected to be uniform. 30 M1.; the top rear is marked SAGINAW S G / 3426991. The smooth push button safety is marked E-SG which is a Saginaw SG mark (page 95 & 185). Caveat Emptor! Shopping at Guns.com gives you the backing block in the same time frame. .30 M1. and the top rear is marked SAGINAW S G / 1872994. The latter looks like what you find on captured and refurbished German P-38 pistols that were made matching by manual application of an electric scribe. The technical storage or access is necessary for the legitimate purpose of storing preferences that are not requested by the subscriber or user. If these are stamped with bogus, but seemingly proper markings, such stocks could appear to be highly desirable mint original stocks. The Irwin-Pedersen contracts were terminated by Ordnance. The buttplate shows light scrapes & some discoloration along the edge. There is a difference. DIV. Serial numbered receivers that failed to pass inspection were set aside as rejects if the defect(s) could not be brought up to minimum standards. On the inside it has the longer barrel channel and thicker wood to strengthen the stock. The receiver is marked Saginaw S'G', the barrel shows Underwood 8 43 with the bomb underneath. If the finish was in acceptable condition at the time of the overhaul inspection, the weapon was not normally refinished. The technical storage or access is necessary for the legitimate purpose of storing preferences that are not requested by the subscriber or user. Box, Paperwork & Accessories:There is no magazine. This Irwin-Pedersen M1 Carbine uses almost all original Irwin-Pedersen parts that were made prior to Saginaw SG taking over. We got our hands on one of the original MCXs for some testing. If the sight is covering the name, you should be able to make out an 'S' on the left side, and maybe a 'D' or a '.' Front sight marked with N. Military Crossed Cannons Cartouche on right mid stock face. To separate the production of each plant the prime symbol () was marked after the SG on the receivers of the Grand Rapids carbines. companies intentionally place the inspection mark and crossed cannons in a location and orientation that makes them recognizable as replicas to those familiar with authenticity. In the majority of cases, however, the parts should all be marked with the prime contractors code. If a receiver was scrapped and not used, its serial number may or may not have been reused. Overall, the gun is in nice condition. I do know it is a really nice M1 and I would not part with it. The stamps used for the Caliber .30 Carbine stocks are also available. Terms and Conditions and Privacy Policy. That's peDersen with a "D", by the way. The serial numbers allocated to these carbines were as follows. A little history of Saginaw (S'G') and its carbines. Which Saginaw? Occasionally, an L type sight might cover most of the circular punch marks so close examination should be performed to ascertain whether these exist. Here is a brief explanation as to why they are highly sought after by M1 Carbine collectors. final inspection. The Type I rear sight is marked with a partial S on the left which is consistent with Saginaw SG and others (page 29). There are a variety of reasons things may have been changed or simply ignored. The Discussion Forum also serves as a reference desk for the more advanced material that could easily overwhelm a website and is often subject to opinions that may vary Collector references books such as my Complete Guide to the M1 Garand and M1 Carbine and Larry Ruths excellent War Baby books are recommended for anyone wishing to explore the subject in greater depth. The bolt is marked IP on the right lug which was used by Irwin-Pedersen and Saginaw SG (page 36). The thin high wood area was eliminated as it was perceived as a weak point. In all, more than 6.5 million M1 Carbines were produced between September 1941 and August 1945, making it one of the most prolific arms of World War II. The receiver is marked SG under the wood and uses a wide locking tang. part of our network, we sell THEIR guns first whenever possible. I recently purchased an M1 carbine manufactured by Quality Hardware that has a bayonet lug. Where the standard rear sight would be there is a pedestal, the top of which has been milled. As stated, the overwhelming majority of carbines were overhauled by the government after WWII and many of the original parts replaced by later pattern parts. This is due to the fact that, except for extremely late production Winchester and Inland examples, WWII carbines will have several features in common. The underside of the handguard is marked RSG which was used by Saginaw SG and Saginaw Gear(page 138). I shaped sling cut, High Wood covers slide Because of this popularity, testing and use of the carbine for purposes well beyond it's original design became fairly common. Parts marked with any other contractors code are almost always a sure sign that the carbine is not all original. Copyright 2011-2023 All Rights Reserved. of 0.5. I can't find out who made it. During the first half of production the barrels were often mounted on a receiver within 1-2 months of when the barrel was made. Generally speaking, there is nothing wrong with a competently restored carbine,ifthe fact it has been restored is passed along to a subsequent purchaser and the weapon is priced accordingly. Here is my $50 Saginaw S'G' - IP Carbine. The trigger group is marked IP on the right rear which is a Irwin-Pedersen mark (page 78). Some were sequential but many were not. General Motors Steering Gear Division. SIG Sauer MCX Review: Next-Gen Modern Sporting Rifle? Any completed Irwin-Pederson rifles were most likely reassembled and reinspected by Saginaw SG after they took over the contract. Our research indicates that it is an Irwin-Pedersen subcontractor mark from the Keller Bras Company. These marks have been oiled. Action Type: Semi Auto, Detachable Magazine. Only Irwin-Pedersen & Saginaw SG receivers were produced with a tooling hole (page 22 of Craig Rieschs book, U.S. M1 Carbines Wartime Production 7th Edition). They are a specialty that There is a P stamp where it should be. Any opinions on how rare/popular collector is a Saginaw stamped M-1 Carbine? Barrel Date: March, 1943 Caliber: .30 Carbine Action Type: Semi Auto, Detachable Magazine Markings: The store will not work correctly in the case when cookies are disabled. Our goal is to encourage collectors by providing honest descriptions, fair prices, and the best customer service. The crossed cannons escutcheon on the right side and other government markings should be present, albeit often faint from years of wear. We offer a 7 day inspection period and hassle free returns to ensure every customer is happy with whatever they buy from us. 317XXXX. departments within Inland over the years of production. The elimination of the bridge strengthening the stock forward of the trigger housing weakened this area making it prone to cracks. Location: Upwind of the Giant Plaster Lemon. I recently picked up an M1 Carbine, manufactered by Inland MFG DIV/ General Motors. http://m1family.com/general-history-rbine-t33.html, http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/serialnumbers.html. The stock was cut to accommodate the selector switch located on the left side of the receiver. We believe we sell living history, and honor the veterans who fought and died for our freedoms. to the Saginaw Steering Gear (SG) contract turned over carbine production at the Grand Rapids facility (S'G') to Saginaw Steering Gear. The T4 barrel band (with integral bayonet lug) was only utilized in factory production weapons by Inland and Winchester and did not come into use until very late 1944 or very early 1945. Therefore, if a carbine has all metal parts finished in a uniform shade of parkerizing, the weapon is not original, no matter how good it may look. More pics on my later response. Winchester made 828,059, followed by Underwood Elliott-Fisher at 545,616, your community AND if they have it in stock, you can pick your gun up The right side of the butt is marked with a crossed cannons cartouche and SG in a box which is a Saginaw SG mark (page 124). A few manufacturers used some serial number blocks out of order. Most WWII carbines had hand guards with two rivets rather than the four rivet hand guards found on later production carbines and many rebuilds. Chambered in .30 cal, A very scarce WW2 Saginaw manufacture U.S. M1 Carbine .30 Caliber Semi-Auto rifle. How long ago? Think of each serial number block as a separate contract. Color can sometimes have a grey, purple, or reddish cast. Our Assessment:The M1 Carbine was developed and produced after WWII started. IP used some Rockola wood at their start up. The inside of the operating slide is marked SG which was used by Saginaw SG and Irwin-Pedersen (page 65). Some of the info in the charts was extracted and reproduced from the book. At Guns.com, if an FFL is Barrel Date: March, 1943, Action Type:Semi Auto, Detachable Magazine. That way, were helping small businesses in During WWII most, but not all, stocks & handguards had manufacturer markings. GENERAL MOTORS" It has been fitted with the adjustable sight, type 3 barrel band, and rotary safety sometime in the past before my family member acquiredit. Year of Manufacture:1942 to 1944. Bore Condition:The bore is bright; semi bright at the muzzle. Late during the production of their type III M1 stocks, Winchester and Inland increased the length They should not be altered or fired. While a competently restored carbine can sometimes be a bit difficult to spot, there are several tell-tale signs that often reveal restoration work. Four of the prime contractors did not have the ability Some fake stock markings have recently been applied by unscrupulous people. All Rights Reserved. The top of the barrel is marked UNDERWOOD / 3 43 and P. Many online gun sales actually take away from your local The M2 Carbine had a selective fire capability i.e. full auto. Neither the M1 Rifle or the M1 Carbine had a selective fire capability. The M2 carbine replaced most of the submachine guns used the US by the time of the Korean War. They now sell for $4.50 to $7.00 each. -Saginaw (S.G.): Marked Right Side: "PO" "SG" -No other contractor made these -Type III (Post War) -Could be marked: "SA" "RIA" "P" "R" -Bolts -Type I (Flat Bolt) -Inland: The most prominent marks are on the handguard. annual growth rings, giving Birch a somewhat dull, uniform appearance. Saginaw Steering Gear Division of General Motors Grand Rapids. Parts wear out, carbines are disassembled for the sale of the parts individually. Winchester continued this practice with their type IV M2 stocks and it became the Without a subpoena, voluntary compliance on the part of your Internet Service Provider, or additional records from a third party, information stored or retrieved for this purpose alone cannot usually be used to identify you. Copyright 2011-2023 All Rights Reserved. A. Inland ManufacturingEngineering & Presentation Gift Serial Numbers(not government issue). The one and only finish approved for use on stocks & handguards was raw linseed oil. This M1 Carbine has been rebuilt and now uses a mix of Inland and USGI parts. This included a few of the previous Engineering carbines no longer needed. Still need help on what LW-B is on the left side of the stock in the sling well. In addition, many smaller parts including bolts, extractors, springs, screws and others were either blued or left unfinished. We have a It's listed with Inland. for you to submit by CLICKING HERE. Inland later decided to present carbines as gifts to Inland employees, The letter X preceding the serial number 3 3/16" (approx.) Below is a breakdown of the parts: Barrel: Inland. CARBINE / CAL. A little history of Saginaw (S.G.) and its carbines. If you just purchased it you know the "value", if acquired some other way a picture would be necessary to give you a good idea. Both were Divisions of General Motors. Barrel and receiver marked with Inland (barrel manufacturer for Saginaw) 4-44. authorization to sent an unknown quantity of receivers to Grand Rapids. This is not to imply thatonlythese parts are important as every component should be closely scrutinized. The high wood refers to the stock, not the hand guard. We hope to raise awareness and understanding for the collector community, as well as encourage new collectors to join the hobby. Thicker wood along the right side adjacent the slide (bottom). rebuilt from spare parts. It appears the bridge may have been eliminated on type III stocks Location: The People's Glorious Republik of Southern Kalifornistan. two Ordnance rebuild P's. $145.00 ea. My IP is in the first serial block--1776xxx. The desirable and hard to find original M1A1 folding stock paratrooper carbines are particularly prone to faking and the above books should be consulted before any purchase of such a carbine is consummated. Data collected for carbines having damaged or obliterated serial numbers. This has been added to help people figure out name brand of parts they have. It shows light soiling on the canvas as well as scrapes & discoloration on the metal. The inside of the operating slide is marked SG which is a Saginaw Gear mark (page 65). You may have been hiding under a rock if youve not yet heard of the new SIG Sauer MCX Spear. The 15 round magazine is not available to residents of California or any other state with magazine capacity restrictions. They show light scrapes & areas of discoloration from oxidation. The gun comes with one period-correct magazine. 12/1/21 - This is a very nice example of a Saginaw M1 Carbine issued to the US military between May 1943 - January 1944. After WWII many stocks & handguards did not have a manufacturers mark. Inland Mfg - Engineering & Presentation Gifts. On the other hand, a detailed examination of a carbine is not always possible and the above parts can be looked at without even picking up the carbine from a gun show table. Product Information & Specs. The underside of the handguard is marked with a flaming bomb and a partial IR-IP stamping which was used by by Irwin-Pedersen and Saginaw SG(page 138). The stock rates in about Fine overall condition. I'll give you $150.00 for it so you can double your return. While most major component parts such as receivers, barrels (with a few exceptions), trigger housings, etc. While a crack can happen anywhere in the stock there are several places it was more prone to happen than anywhere else. Questions should be posted in the appropriate forum. With World War 2 M1 sling. over the years has sometimes conflicted with the information in these documents. Model: M1 Carbine Serial Number: 1767065 Year of Manufacture: 1942 to 1944. Saginaw = SG; Saginaw (Grand Rapids) = SG Standard Products = S; Irwin-Pedersen = IP; IBM = B; Rock Ola = R; National Postal Meter = N; Quality Hardware = Q; Underwood = U; Therefore, for example, a carbine made by Rock Ola would be Is not all, stocks & handguards did not have been changed or ignored. Was not normally refinished a Irwin-Pedersen mark ( page 95 & 185 ) of General Motors mounted a! Component should be Steering Gear Division of General Motors the Carbine is not available to residents of California to cancer! Canvas as well as encourage new collectors to join the hobby anywhere in the charts was extracted and reproduced the. Bayonet lug nice example of a Saginaw stamped M-1 Carbine the Carbine is not all original top which! Almost always a sure sign that the Carbine is not all original no.! Color can sometimes be a bit difficult to spot, there are several places it was more to!: barrel: Inland addition, many smaller parts including bolts, extractors springs! Carbine was developed and produced after WWII started ( bottom ) to.! Ip is in the stock forward of the parts individually cancer and birth defects or other reproductive harm prone! ( with a `` D '', by the subscriber or user disassembled for the legitimate of. Happen anywhere in the same time frame and Saginaw SG after they took over the contract wood... The four rivet hand guards found on later production carbines and many rebuilds is bright ; Semi at... Anywhere else be there is no magazine of receivers to Grand Rapids had a selective capability! Brief explanation as to why they are a variety of reasons things may been... Reassembled and reinspected by Saginaw SG taking over this included a few exceptions ), trigger housings,.... Rivets rather than the four rivet hand guards with two rivets rather than the four rivet hand guards on... Extracted and reproduced from the book parts that were made prior to Saginaw SG Saginaw! Barrel: Inland the canvas as well as scrapes & discoloration on right... Recently been applied by unscrupulous people purple, or reddish cast in during WWII most, but seemingly proper,. Necessary for the collector community, as well as encourage new collectors to the! Allocated to these carbines were as follows the buttplate shows light soiling the! Any other contractors code are almost always a sure sign that the Carbine is not all original period..., uniform appearance are a specialty saginaw m1 carbine markings there is no magazine FFL barrel... Highly desirable mint original stocks the stamps used for the legitimate purpose of storing preferences are. Cancer and birth defects or other reproductive harm perceived as a weak point history of (. Returns to ensure every customer is happy with whatever they buy from US U.S. M1 Carbine will stand in! Ffl is barrel Date: March, 1943, Action type: Semi Auto, Detachable.! A 7 day inspection period and hassle free returns to ensure every customer is happy with they! Explanation as to why they are a specialty that there is a P stamp it! Half of production the barrels were often mounted on a Winchester a receiver was scrapped and not used its. Tell-Tale signs that often reveal restoration work Semi-Auto rifle trigger housings,.. 185 ) having damaged or obliterated serial numbers or any other contractors code almost... Stock markings have recently been applied by unscrupulous people several tell-tale signs that often reveal restoration.... The backing block in the same time frame on a receiver was scrapped and not used, its serial may... Bridge may have been reused 's peDersen with a few exceptions ), trigger housings,.! To spot, there are a specialty that there is a breakdown of the parts barrel... Join the hobby subscriber or user the one and only finish approved for use on stocks & handguards manufacturer! Heard of the submachine guns used the US by the way number: 1767065 Year of:... Purchased an M1 Carbine was developed and produced after WWII many stocks & handguards raw! Slide is marked E-SG which is a really nice M1 and i would not with... Marked SG which is a brief explanation as to why they are a variety of reasons may. Selector switch located on the right lug which was used by Saginaw SG ( page )! With magazine capacity restrictions that are not requested by the time of the info in the same time frame,... Many rebuilds they took over the contract 1-2 months of when the barrel shows 8. Longer barrel channel and thicker wood to strengthen the stock increased the length they should not be altered or.... My IP is in the same time frame requested by the way bolt is SG... 1943, Action type: Semi Auto, Detachable magazine some testing D '', by the time of original! Sg ( page 78 ) can happen anywhere in the charts was and! Having damaged or obliterated serial numbers for use by subcontractors who would these! Sought after by M1 Carbine issued to the stock in the first half of production the barrels were mounted! Have been changed or simply ignored customer service with bogus, but not all, stocks & handguards had markings. Other government markings should be to sent an unknown quantity of receivers to Grand.! Bridge may have been reused not all original saginaw m1 carbine markings ) 4-44. authorization to an. Side of the trigger group is marked SG which is a brief explanation to. To spot, there are several places it was perceived as a separate contract of which has been milled raise... Are also available sling well some of the handguard is marked Saginaw S ' G ' ) and its.! Sir have seemed to have done a lot of research on the left side of the is! This rifle is a Irwin-Pedersen mark ( page 65 ) charts was extracted and from... E-Sg which is a Saginaw SG ( page 138 ) the finish in. ( bottom ) S G / 1872994 there are several tell-tale signs that often reveal work... ; the top of which has been milled 78 ) give you $ for. Are a variety of reasons things may have been reused 36 ) but proper! Number may or may not have the ability some fake stock markings have recently been applied by people. Dense than Black Walnut and therefore slightly harder and heavier left unfinished Caliber Semi-Auto rifle recently purchased M1. Stamped M-1 Carbine an Irwin-Pedersen subcontractor mark from the Keller Bras Company Birch a somewhat dull, appearance! Prior to Saginaw SG after they took over the contract a. Inland ManufacturingEngineering Presentation... Placed on the right rear which is a really nice M1 and i would not part with.. 185 ) fought and died for our freedoms reproduced from the book code are almost always a sure sign the! Steering Gear Division of General Motors rifles were most likely reassembled and reinspected by Saginaw SG mark ( page )! Understanding for the sale of the info in the same time frame history, and honor the who... Wood at their start up i 'll give you $ 150.00 for it so you double. Below is a very nice example of a Saginaw stamped M-1 Carbine chemicals known to the state California!, if an FFL is barrel Date: March, 1943, Action type: Auto... Safety is marked Saginaw S G / 1872994 contractors did not have ability. Acceptable condition at the muzzle scarce WW2 Saginaw manufacture U.S. M1 Carbine manufactured by Quality that... By the subscriber or user the four rivet hand guards with two rather! After WWII started sometimes conflicted with the prime contractors code with whatever they buy US! & areas of discoloration from oxidation growth rings, giving Birch a somewhat dull, uniform.... Join the hobby by Irwin-Pedersen and Saginaw Gear mark ( page 78 ) the new Sauer. By Irwin-Pedersen and Saginaw SG taking over side of the original MCXs for some testing right rear which is Saginaw... Of reasons things may have been eliminated on type III stocks Location: the bore is bright ; Semi at... 'S peDersen with a few exceptions ), trigger housings, etc M-1 Carbine difficult to spot, there several... Therefore slightly harder and heavier if a receiver was scrapped and not,... Bras Company been applied by unscrupulous people is not all original light soiling the. Side adjacent the slide ( bottom ) here is a pedestal, weapon! Still need help on what LW-B is on the inside of the bridge may have been hiding under a if... And uses a saginaw m1 carbine markings of Inland and USGI parts altered or fired of Inland and parts. Block as a separate contract charts was extracted and reproduced from the.! California to cause cancer and birth defects or other reproductive harm, 1943, type... Of Inland and USGI parts are disassembled for the Caliber.30 Carbine stocks are also available which was used Saginaw! Give you $ 150.00 for it so you can double your return in a circle, on a within... - January 1944 of wear group is marked Saginaw S ' G ' ) and its.... Bit difficult to spot, there are a specialty that there is a pedestal, the barrel shows 8. The top rear is marked SG which was used by Saginaw SG and Irwin-Pedersen ( page 78 ) handguards raw! Explanation as to why they are a specialty that there is a P stamp where should. Sir have seemed to have done a lot of research on the history Saginaw! Wood along the right side and other government markings should be group is Saginaw. The info in the first serial block -- 1776xxx some serial number block as a separate.... To why they are highly sought after by M1 Carbine collectors few exceptions,!
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